Episode 69: ADHD, Neuroqueer and Fully Living Your Truth with Pasha Marlowe

Pasha is a marriage and family therapist. She is a trauma-informed ADHD and neuro queer coach. She works with neurodiverse people, couples and groups around the ADHD experience.

Listen on Apple: https://apple.co/3QZJU75
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Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/_4EIH-dzzZQ

Connect with Pasha:

IG and Titktok: @neuroqueercoach

Website: pashamarlowe.com

Email: pasha@pashamarlowe.com

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Pasha: You can just know yourself is queer. You don't ever have to have any experience at all. You don't have to change a darn thing, but it's nice to be able to say it to yourself and out loud. Yeah. To yourself or to others who can hold space for you safely. And then I just relentlessly became an ally, an advocate for the queer community and, and gay rights and most all of my clients in the ADHD community.

Also, I. Somewhere along the spectrum of queerness and there's a cross-section there. And I think it's really important for safe spaces to be held for kids who don't know who they can trust to come out to. So I make sure in my community that I'm that person.

Emily: I love that so much. And I think one of the most remarkable things about you is you're willingness to really be seen in your truth in ways that frankly, for me, if I imagine myself doing that, it feels so vulnerable.

Hello, beautiful soul today's episode is so, so good. And before we jump in, I have some exciting news to share. If you've ever wondered where you're blocking money, this is for. I've created a free quiz to diagnose your money wounds so you can heal them and unblock yourself to receive more money. Just go to moneywoundsquiz.com and answer six quick questions to get your insanely accurate and potent results. And if you're loving my vibe and want to work one on one to call in more feminine energy wealth, I would love to hear from you. You can shoot me a DM on social media or go to emilywilcox.com to learn more.

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. I am so happy to be here with you today. Oh my gosh.

It's been such an interesting day and I've had to just lean into the gratitude of the life that I've created and the time freedom that just allows for flexibility and allows me to be a mom. So Jeff is camping. He's outliving his best life in rural parts of California right now with a bunch of his buddies that they've got their trucks and their Jeeps and their all their offroading gear and their makeshift toilets, because they are totally off the grid.

So I'm on full-time mom duty, which is totally fine. And one of my favorite things about my relationship with Jeff is that we really support each other. Pursuing passions. So there's no part of me that feels like I'm keeping score or he should be here. I'm really, really happy for him. However, he normally does the school drop-off in the morning and I do the pickup and that's kind of our flow.

So I did school drop off this morning. It only has a half day. So it's like, okay, a set a three-hour timer and I'll be back here kind of a thing. So I drop her off at school and then I get to JJ J's preschool. And when I get him out of the car, I discover that he's not wearing any shoes. Oh, my goodness.

Not gonna lie. I felt frustrated in that moment because I already felt like I wasn't going to have a full day of work. And then here I was having to do a double commute. So left him at preschool, told them I would come back with shoes, place to Starbucks, mobile order because I felt like I needed to give myself a little self-indulgence.

On behalf of this little misadventure. So went back home, got the shoes, went back to the preschool and then sat down to work and had just had one of those days where everything feels really, really fulfilling, even though the schedule also feels full. So the other thing that's going on in my world is that I have one spot left for my October rise retreat in Palm Springs, California.

The theme is wealth activation. I do these retreats in luxury accommodation. It's all-inclusive. So we get to be under a roof together. All of your food, all of your experiences are included. I have brought in incredible guest speakers and healers at my past retreats. I don't like to share all the details because it's so fun for it to be.

But there's one spot left and it's gonna go quickly. So if you imagine yourself being there with us next month, October 6th, through the ninth, send me a DM right away to claim your spot. Otherwise, my next retreat won't be until spring of 2023. So if you know that you wanna retreat with me, send me a DM. I can get you on a waitlist so that you can be the first to hear the details about the spring retreat.

One of the things that I got to do today that I absolutely loved was to sit down and interview Pasha Marlowe. Pasha is one of these people who, I don't even know how we got connected on Facebook. It's probably been at least three years, maybe four, but she is someone who just has captivating storytelling and is so freaking vulnerable and so willing to be seen in the mess.

And the yuck that sometimes is part of this human experience. And I. Been so impressed by that, that I've been like a lurker and just one of those silent fans that absolutely loves everything that she does. So I feel totally honored that I get to interview her for this show. And, oh my gosh, you guys are in for a treat.

You're absolutely gonna love this interview. Pasha is just a fascinating human being. First of all, she is an LMFT. So a master's in like, you know, family therapy. She's a trauma-informed ADHD and neuro queer coach. She works with neurodiverse people, couples, and  groups around the ADHD experience. And she has this whole backstory where she was doing comedy routines and working with women to find laughter and find levity in, in spite of just personal tragedy or difficult experiences. She's also been focused on this really interesting aspect of ADHD called rejection sensitivity dysphoria, which is super fascinating and something that I dug in and just asked a lot of questions about just to understand how it's playing out in our personal and professional lives.

She also works as a speaker and a podcast host. And she is the author of my next husband will be a lesbian. She lives in Maine with the youngest of her three kids. And the second of her three spouses, she thinks it's hilarious that she's on a money podcast with me because she has her own challenges with even just numbers and, uh, dis help.

I can't even say this, dyscalculia, which is where numbers just look really difficult and transpose in your brain. It's similar to dyslexia, but with numbers. So despite her allergy to numbers, she came on the show. It was so fascinating. You guys are gonna absolutely love her. So with that, let's die right in.

Hi, Pasha. I'm so happy to have you on the show.

Pasha: Thank you, Emily.

Emily: I'm happy to, and I have to confess, I don't even know how we got connected, who are you and how many years it's been, but I have been probably, this is a good lesson for all of us. Part of that is like silent majority that just enjoys, consuming your content over the years.

And so I feel like I know you perhaps better than you feel like, you know me and I've always just admired the way that you show up. And it really feels your are simultaneously in touch with your power, with your vulnerability. You're really willing to leverage community and just share what's going on and ask for support. And I'm so curious, has that been an evolution for you or do you feel you've always had a sense of, this is me take it or leave it here and I'm sharing it with you.

Pasha: No, I haven't always been that way. I believe that the catalyst moment for that shift was we're just going deep right away. My son youngest, I have three kids, 27, 25, and now almost 15 became very ill about three years ago to the point where we thought we were gonna lose him, whether it was from the physical or the psychological symptoms of his illness.

So I went from being CEO, business woman and mommying sometimes to a hundred percent. 24/7, not only mommy, but being hypervigilant about keeping him safe. Yeah. And so, I mean, we're on suicide watch. So everything gets into perspective and all of a sudden I realized. That my work mattered before, but it really mattered to people.

As you're saying to people who aren't even responding to my post to people who aren't reaching out for an appointment, there's people watching and listening about vulnerability about chronic illness, about moming sick kids and mental health and neurodiversity. And sexuality and all the things that I talk about that it's important for me to be visible and loud. And I just felt like it was my time to do that. And that it was my responsibility for if I couldn't save my own kid, which I was worried about, I determined and decided that I would try to save others in holding space for them.

Emily: And it's been really fascinating, at least the pieces that I've witnessed of your son, Janie, who has lyme disease. And my understanding with lyme is that it can sort of present in a million different ways. It's impossible to get the diagnosis, first of all. And then once you have the diagnosis, it's just sort of like, okay, here's a list of 8,000 symptoms that they may or may not have in varying degrees of severity. That exactly may be able to be treated or may not. And it's all just trial and error and wish and a prayer.

Pasha: You're right. There's levels of severity. Some people get a bite, they take antibiotics for a month and then they're good. They're like, oh, I had lime. That was a hard month. I got really tired. I was achy.

And then some people like my son who were misdiagnosed. And have other co-infections and other things like mold toxicity and other things on top of it are debilitating. And he didn't go to school for most of three years. So all of middle school, he pretty much missed, and those are formative years, obviously during COVID. And so it can be life-changing for somebody and completely debilitating to the point where people often can't get outta bed, or it could be something that people recover from. And my other two kids had it as well, and they're doing fine.

Emily: And were you already doing roar with laughter or was that an offer that felt the medicine you needed during all of the gravity of this situation?

Pasha: I have no sense of humor up until that point. I didn't laugh easily. I did roar with laughter to save my own life because I was witnessing myself going deep into hypervigilance, anxiety, depression, fear. Like I'd go to the mailbox and I'd walk back in the house and fear what I'd walk into. Yeah. So to have that constant level of fear.

I had been a therapist. I had been a marriage and family therapist. I had been a personal trainer. I'd done yoga and mindfulness. I like thought, okay, I practice all the tools. I teach all the tools. I know all the tools. I am still not. Okay. What haven't I tried? And I'm like, what would be the scariest thing to try?

What would be the weirdest thing to try? That's what I should try humor comedy. And so Jamie and I in going to doctor's offices and hospitals, every darn day of the first couple. We just started trying to find the humor in it, in how bad it was, even like the paradox. It was helping heal him. And I saw it helping heal me.

And then I realized that after all major tragedies, uh, and I was reading about things like nine 11 and the Holocaust that humor, humor, and community to bring a sense of belonging was what helped people survive and being who I am an entrepreneur. I'm like, well, as soon as I learn it, I have to teach it.

As soon as I teach it, I have to create a program about it. And then all of a sudden I'm teaching people to move through their trauma, through the lens of humor and we're putting on live comedy shows. And so I did that for two years. Survive. And this is so heartbreaking and I don't know, the universe is interesting, but I would have groups of four or five women in each group of roar with laughter.

And I'm not kidding that every single group, there was a tragedy in each group in those eight weeks, somebody lost. Somebody a death in their family, of their child, of their husband, of their animals. And to the point where I almost got scared to run it, I'm like, what have I created here? Like, yes, I want to put this into practice and action, but seriously, do we actually need to experience real tragedy to practice?

Seeing life through the lens of humor to ease our struggles and our suffering. But it still worked and it worked and they survived it through that. And the community we built around it through was really strong. I stepped away from it last year mindfully because I started to realize for my son to protect his privacy as a teenager, that he really didn't want me always talking about him and his illness, which is completely understandable. And on top of that, I started to see the need with neurodiversity, big time for midlife women and menopause. And so I shift.

Emily: And I'm super excited to dive into that topic, but I also just have to reflect, I didn't realize you did live comedy shows with women as part of that program. Yeah, it was the culminating level.

Pasha: It was the culminating event and it was terrifying each time. And the scariest thing they say they've ever done and the most fun thing and the most transformative, of course, those are the things. And tomorrow I'm actually doing. So people started to see me as a comedian, which is hilarious in itself because I'm really more of like a grief counselor, but I called it trauma.

And so tomorrow. Somebody hired me to open up their OB-GYN practice to talk about Volvo trauma and Volvo humor. And so I'm excited and nervous, but it's like a side gig that I have going all the time in my head that if I start to see things through the lens of humor, I take myself less seriously and things that used to terrify me and doing a podcast about money.

I don't even know what you're thinking, bringing me on here, but I would not be able to say yes to this. Had it not been for humor. Right. Like, was that a typo? I'm not sure you picked the right person.

Emily: Well, I'm so glad that you're here. And just to give our listeners a little backstory, I have a few questions that I ask people in the booking process for this podcast, which is actually less about me and probably more about them, but maybe equal parts, because the thing is asking people like how much money do you make?

Oh, cool. How much of that actually goes into your bank? Those questions are typically not appropriate. And so part of what gives me the courage to just go there and dive right in is that I've given you a heads up. So if you're a guest on this podcast, it's not coming as a surprise to you because when you book, I say, I'm gonna ask you these kinds of questions.

Do you cool with that? And so Pasha almost took herself out of the game because she saw those questions and was like, did you know that I have ADHD? And I have this and numbers are really scary to me. And I dunno what the hell you were thinking, inviting me on this show. So maybe we just shouldn't do this.

Oh, cool. That would be so perfect. Can you come talk about that?

Pasha: I realized after you responded that way, I'm like you're right. There's probably people out. Also with ADHD or fear of numbers or shame of what not about numbers, limiting beliefs, who probably would really like to hear about how somebody moves through that. So I realized...

Emily: 100%. Okay. So let's dive into that because, and let's start at the top. When did you self-diagnose essentially?

Pasha: Yeah, like most women

Emily: most adult women, right?

Pasha: Most adult women go to a 5 0 4, an IEP for their kids' school. And then they're given the list of symptoms of ADHD or autism or whatever's presenting and they're going check.

Emily: They're like "I feel so seen right now."

Pasha: And then you're like, oh, it's genetic 60% genetic. Well, that means that likely my, oh my mom or my dad. Oh, their mom. And then all of a sudden you're like click, click, click is usually like, everything starts making sense as to why your parents were that way or how you were raised or how you struggled in school and you didn't have a name for it or a diagnosis, but all of a sudden this makes sense for me.

And it's an interesting. There's a moment of grief. Well, there it's like a light bulb moment, but then there's also grief. Like, oh my, I didn't have this diagnosis. I didn't have these resources. I didn't have this help and support. And the schools weren't really aware for girls and women, especially, and there's anger.

There's anger around why didn't my parents help me. Why didn't my teachers notice. The struggle for girls is often internal. So ADHD, the age means hyperactivity and the hyperactivity for girls and women is often in our minds. So we could be excellent students, and CEOs. We could have bank accounts that look very successful, but internally we could be struggling and suffering and working hundred times harder than another person. And with crippling anxiety or rejection sensitivity, or whatever it's. And so that's the hyperactivity for girls.

Emily: Talk to me more about rejection sensitivity, because I've never heard of this, but also hello, have experienced rejection and have felt very sensitive about it. So I'm very curious what takes it out of the range of normal and how it interplays with an ADHD diagnosis?

Pasha: Yes. So most everybody has rejection sensitivity, especially if they're sensitive or empathetic people or people pleasing people. But with most people with ADHD often also have rejection sensitivity, dysphoria, which is where it becomes. Just unbearable. So if I get an email from my, or a text or a slack message from my boss, and thanks for sending me the report, I'd really appreciate it.

If you didn't use this word and it could have been four pages, all I will see and here and focus on is I'd really appreciated. Use that word. Is he mad? I'm disappointed in him. Am I gonna lose my job? I shouldn't even, I don't even deserve this job. I probably shouldn't even be working in this career. I probably shouldn't be working at all.

Like I'm worth like down this rabbit hole and then you're kind of crippled and paralyzed in grief and fear and shame for hours, days, weeks. And so it it's how it is disabling. And so somebody who has a fear of missing out, like you go on social media and you see friends hanging out on social media and you're close enough to them that you thought you should have been invited, but you weren't.

And that crushes us in that fear of rejection to the point where we have social anxiety or decide not to call them anymore, or just decide that we're not gonna even make friends anymore. Or maybe we're not worthy of friendships. Like you can see how we could spiral out. Yeah. So. Very common it's I see it in every single one of my ADHD clients.

And I I'm glad it has a name, uh, the rejection sensitivity dysphoria, because it helps us understand it cuz there's a cycle and it's very brief it's that we have trauma, whether it's childhood trauma or the trauma of being misunderstood, criticized, rejected, judged in childhood and ongoing. And then we become people pleasers and we start trying to accommodate or mask or say yes to things that we shouldn't or take on too.

And in that people pleasing, we get burnt out and then we take on too much. We get burnt out, we get overwhelmed. And then guess what? There is actual rejection because we actually lose the friends or lose the job or lose the relationship because we've taken on more than we can handle. And that rejection sensitivity, dysphoria, insidious cycle just continues to go until we interrupt it. Does that make sense?

Emily: Yeah, absolutely. And how much of the symptomatology that you've just mentioned responds to traditional pharmaceutical therapies for ADHD versus I'm assuming the type of therapy that you're doing, which is perhaps more around re-patterning our nervous system and things like that.

Pasha: Yeah. There's apparently two medications that, of course, I can't remember the name to right now. I should have them off the top of my tongue, but I don't are useful. They're not the typical stimulants like Adderall or something, but there are two medications that are often used for blood pressure.

Interestingly, that have been shown to help with rejection, sensitivity, and dysphoria as well. I've not tried them. And I don't know anybody who has actually, but most of the time, regular talk therapy doesn't work because the triggers happen. And the cycle happens immediately without any warning, really. We just get triggered and then we spiral out.

So what helps is I think either coaching or therapy specifically related to rejection where, you know, the cycle, like I know now my cycle and I know I could see it happening. And I know my triggers more. And my friends though, that when I call them and I say, I don't even. Know why I work. I don't even know why I have this job.

Nobody, I don't know anything, but like okay. That, and then they can reflect back to being some of my values and gifts that I forget when I'm in panic for fear mode. And so it's helpful to have other people in the know whether it's your friends or family, or when I run groups called RSD repair, there's a group and a community set up to help us navigate those moment.

Emily: I love that. And it reminds me of a lot of what I teach in money wound medicine, which is that the diagnosis, the labeling, the understanding that, oh, that's my money trust wound. Yeah. So it's having a moment and it's moment tends to look like this feels like this in my body. It's like, that's actually the most powerful part.

Absolutely. It's like, oh, there we're doing that thing again. right, right. Yeah. And like, even if you can't pattern interrupt, even if it's just at a run its course or do its little cycle, it's just remembering that. Oh, that's just a thing.

Pasha: Exactly. It's like, we're witnessing it now. Yeah. Right. And we're watching it play out a little bit more and we're not delving into the drama of it as much as a witness to it.

Emily: Or like giving it the compound emotion, because what I find is it's, it's the blame and the shame and the story around being in the trigger that add a hundred pounds. It's like, "Ugh, I'm so broken. Why do I always go to this place? This is the worst. I suck."

I don't understand why I can't just get myself out of it. It's like all of that extra compounding. Yes. Instead of just being like, oh wow. I am really in the thick of rejection sensitivity right now. This is happening. I'm in this cycle, but it's like, that actually feels so much more neutral. Yes. And being mad or upset or blaming or self-deprecating about being in the cycle.

Pasha: Right. You gotta shame about your shame. I can't believe I'm so weak that I'm feeling shame about this. And then, so if we can, that's when I think humor comes in, because yes, I think humor and comedy is looking at things from a new perspective. So if we could just be like, how can we turn this thing upside down and just look at it from another angle?

It's not always at all funny at the moment, but I think it's one of many, many tools as well. Okay. I know my triggers now. I know, oh, I see myself in that cycle and like, can I trust my brain right now? Beause my brain is a bitch. Like seriously, she's me. And so like, is she even telling me the truth right now? Or is she just viewing out all kinds of limiting beliefs that they're just made up? Right. And so it's kind of that stepping away from my own head.

Emily: Yes. So you've recently become like a TikTok sensation with your ADHD coaching business. Tell us more about that.

Pasha: It's like me being on a money podcast that I would be a TikTok sensation because it's technology and I don't edit. And I don't ever do a second take. I don't even know the terminology. I'm sure people practice what they're gonna say and they write a script and then they do it over to make it sound good. Like, I don't do that because to me, my best work comes from a highly vulnerable, intuitive place. Yeah. And so I just, if I see something in a client or in a couple I'm working with or out in the world or something that's happened to me and I feel passionate about it or brings up emotion.

I grab my phone and I make a TikTok. And because I'm coming from that energy, it works and it resonates with people. And then they see me and they feel my emotion in it. I think if I tried to make it polished and edited it wouldn't and there's so many of us out there. Oh my gosh. TikTok is seemingly hundreds of ADHD coaches.

And I get frankly really bored with the typical narrative of ADHD coaching and how to get more organized and how to use a planner and how to set your time. Or like, I really don't even care for all that. Yeah. Because I. None of that works unless you deal with the deeper emotional regulat issues and the rejection sensitivity issues.

So that's where I like to live. And so I think that's resonating with people. So, yeah, I'm at your ADHD coach on TikTok 60,000 as of today.

Emily: That's amazing. Well, and like when you were sharing about it, the thing that caught my attention is it wasn't just like, oh, I got all these new followers. You were like, I also got this many inquiries from people who want hire me. And that is so different than the vanity metric of 60,000 followers.

Pasha: Yeah it translates into money and business quickly because people with ADHD out of anxiety and rejection, over-prepare for their things. I over-prepared and listened to the previous episodes, all of them that you did. And the one that you just did prior to this one was talking about being an entrepreneur and how people who see us on social media know us more than we know them.

So they're already aware of my son, my sexuality, and my limiting beliefs. And I'm just like, "Hi, my name is Pasha." Oh yeah. And so that was weird to me, but that also made the calls, whatever discovery calls you wanna call them instant. Yeah. They were easy. So they already know me. They already know they wanna work with me.

They already know my style, my way of thinking. They just wanna know how to book a call or do I have space for them or. Do I like them enough. They're like, do you like us enough to work with that? And sometimes I don't, but sometimes, and so it translates into appointments and then I made the mistake and you've probably talked a bit of this on your podcast of offering free discovery calls and consultations.

And in the beginning of TikTok, a couple months ago was getting 11 a day, like every day discovery calls for free and realizing I was working for hours for free and offering a ton of free advice, which made me feel good and value, which made me feel good, but I was not making any more money. And so I really had to make the hard decision of charging $25 for my consultations. And I make sure they're really valuable. That was a big shift. That was probably the biggest shift in my business. And it really, people didn't cancel and not show cause that felt horrible to me is the NoShow. And so that was the biggest change. And then I did charge, I was in 1999 prices for a long time and I was under a hundred dollars for everything I offered.

And I was wondering why I would go to the grocery store and not be able to afford food. And all my clients were doing great. It's like, what am I doing wrong? And so I hired my own business coaches who suggested reasonable prices that still felt good and empathetic from my empathetic heart, but fair. So that was, and it's funny with ADHD and I know I'm talking so fast and so much, but with ADHD, we forget what we've done.

So my business coach would be like, how much are you charging? And I'd be like $90. And she's like, OK, can you tell me about your education? I'll be like, I've a master's in marriage, family therapy. She's like, well, how long have you been doing that? Well, 30 years. She's like interesting. And then she asked me about all my other work and places.

I've been keynote speakers and yada, yada, the book I wrote the podcast. She's like, "Okay, now."  She's like, "do you think about all that when you're charging $90?"  I'm like, "no." I kind of frankly forget about all the things I've done until somebody asks me. And so she had me write them down and then she had me write down how much I spent on those activities.

And I was like, "okay."So I went quickly to 150 from 90, which I know is still in the world of coaching really inexpensive, but I needed to, I hadn't thought about it that way. I really haven't. I was like, it's an hour. How much would I be an hour? And I didn't put value on 30 years of experience.

Emily: Well, I love that you got some support to have that reflected to you. So while we're on the topic of numbers, how much does your business.

Pasha: This is where it gets embarrassing because I don't really know how to determine that you can help me out here. And anyone out there part of ADHD is often dyslexia and dyscalculia. So numbers are not only confusing to understand, but I transpose them a lot.

And so. I'm the person who, when it asks for a pass code, number of four numbers, I say, oh, 4, 7, 3, 2. And then I write four. I'm like, what was the second number? And I go back 4, 7, 3, 2. And if I, I have to sing it, like, I'm just like, oh, good grief. Like it took me five minutes to write down four numbers. So given that difficulty in my brain, I'm scared to trust myself with banking, needless to.

I don't know how to determine how much it makes, because if I look at the numbers in my bank account, it goes up, but how do I determine how much does this mean I make per month, per year? I'm not sure, except that I can tell you in February of this year, I'd never seen it. This is really embarrassing beause I work like crazy 80 hours a week. I had never seen it over 20 ever. My balance 20,000, I thought, I didn't know. That was not great. And now it's at. Woo. Yeah. And that's probably, I don't even know somebody out there could be like, so, but for me at 52 years old, Never seen it go over 20 now seeing it 80. Does that mean I make 80,000 years? Probably not beause I think that was just like recent, but I need to make a hundred to live. I wanna be financially independent side story. I'm trying to get out of my marriage, whatever I'm not financially independent, never have. beause I've been mommying for 27 years and busy. I don't know how much it takes, but I'm hearing, it takes a hundred thousand dollars ish to live where I live by myself. I'm like, crap. I have to raise my prices again.

Emily: Oh, you can do that so easily. I have zero fear for you. And I think you actually bring up something really interesting, which is that the question of how much you make.

Particularly as an entrepreneur, it actually can be a really loaded question. What I do is keep it very open-ended because then I let people sort of define it in the way that makes sense for them or whatever numbers they track. But I will say if, for example, like if a mortgage broker asked me, well, how much do you.

I would have to say, well, okay, we have multiple businesses. And so we have this business does 1.2 million and I've got my coaching business that does like 200,000. But in terms of then, there's the income that shows on my tax return, which is a very different number because. That's technically personal income. And of course, when you work with a lot of smart people that try to make that number look small so that you're paying your share of taxes, but not paying gazillions in taxes, it ends up being that it feels like there's five different numbers at least. And so I just wanna share, like, I don't have issues with numbers.

Like they do feel normal and easy to track for me. And still there can be so many different ways of interpret. And it's actually part of the reason that I have the podcast because I just feel like first of all, we don't talk about it, which just adds all kinds of mysticism and mystery and curiosity and shame and everything else.

But then when we do talk about it, it gives us the opportunity to start creating some common language or adding some definitions because also you see in the online space a lot where people will say I had my first hundred k month and sometimes they mean revenue, right? And not cash. So they didn't actually collect a hundred thousand dollars cash. They might have sold one program. That's like a year-long one-on-one coaching package for a hundred grand spread out.

Pasha: Ah, yeah. That matters.

Emily: Collected $8,000. And it's like, okay, but if you took an 8,000 cash and you're saying you had a hundred K month, it's not, that it's necessarily shady. Right. Beause we just have to label what it is.

But I think on the receiving end of that if we don't understand what people are talking. We can sort of weaponize that against ourselves like "Oh God, I'm so far behind" when it's like, no, but you're comparing your cash number to someone else's revenue number. And that's just so different.

Pasha: That makes so much sense to me. Thank you for explaining that. Because if somebody said I made, I had a hundred thousand dollars month because I sold whatever 10 year programs. For 10 people a year program. I can figure that out that that's gonna be spread out right over a long period of time. Where in my head, when somebody says that it must mean they made a hundred, they have a hundred thousand dollars in their bank account this month.

I didn't understand. Yeah. That seems shady to me to claim it that way. I would never claim it that way. So yeah. I don't know. That's really interesting. And I wish it were more transparent because every business coach I've been to says, well, six figures is. Basic like standard. And I'm like, I don't even know what that means.

I mean, I know what six figures means, but I don't understand. What does that, how does that translate to my goal is that by the end of the year, I need to do that in a certain amount of time. I need to do that. I need to have that consistently on my bank account liike break this down for me. I don't get right.

Emily: What is success to ask all those questions and tell, it feels really clear to you. So, and I just love that about you because I feel like you are actually pretty unapologetic about just being okay. Well, I have these 55 questions and I just need them answered cuz this is just how my brain works and it's like. "Perfect."

Pasha: Now all I wanna do is write a comedy routine about the shadiness of coaching. 

Emily: Will you please come back on the show once you do it?

Pasha: Yes. And it's not just money it's I was just saying the other day you probably saw my post, the amount of emails I get that start with. Hey lovely. Or Hey gorgeous or Hey Godes. And two sentences later. They're like I wanted to personally send you an invite for this group. I think it would resonate with you. I love what you do. I am gullible. I believe them. I believe they know me. I believe they've read my stuff. I believe they're inviting me. And then I got sucked in and then I'm like, "Are you real?"and then I write back like, "Are you a bot? Are you real?" I don't know.  And then I get freaked out by this and I think that's shady. I don't like it.

Emily: Agreed. I'm not a fan of those practices either. And I feel it's turned me into like a hardened crusty person in the sense that if someone actually is genuinely in my inbox and usually I can tell energetically at this point, I just tap into the feeling of it. When anytime someone's like, "Oh, what's exciting for you right now, or how are you doing? Or how's it?" It's just, "Oh, okay."That's a bot if you're asking, well, even if it's not a bot, it's just a copy and paste. And it's you asking me a question so that we can build a little bit of fake rapport so that you can like pitch me on your thing.

And I just, I don't love that tactic. And frankly, I don't think you love that tactic either. I think you're just doing it because you paid someone else for their five-step framework and this is step one. And I like can't wait until the day when you really learn that you just get to do it your way and it just gets to feel.

Pasha: Such a beautiful transition too, when people are just like, that does not work for me. I'm just gonna do it my way. I remember one day I've been through, I don't know, four or five other coaching programs with coaches. And as soon, like the day I stopped paying or the day it ended, it was if I didn't exist, no more comments on my posts.

No more, no more texts, no more thumbs up. And I was like, what? And then I. I took it personally. I was like, wait a minute like, not that I thought they were my friend, but how could they love me? Right. And be obsessed with me and think I'm a goddess one day and then be like, oh, the next. So I'm like, I'm not doing that to people.

I just don't. I still follow the people I coach. I still do care for them and love them. And does that mean, I love a lot of people. Yes. Does that mean I have a huge community. I'm probably overdoing my service from my heart for free. Yeah. But like, that's what feels good to me and none of my coaches ever support me, but I.

That's what I need to do for myself. I feel like that's the human way. 

Emily: And I feel like that's the best way to grow our businesses. Just to be the thing that you want, give the surface that you wish that you had. And then it just feels so good and it feels so aligned. Yeah, it aligned. Exactly. So you wrote a book, My Next Husband will be a Lesbian.

Pasha: Yes. Thanks for reminding me. I did that.

Emily:  Now I've learned that you forget all of your accomplishments and achievements.

Pasha: I do. 

Emily: You can write a book and you just mentioned that you're trying to get out of your marriage. 

Pasha:  So there. It's out. Yep. I came out in 2020. A lot of people were like, "Oh, okay." Now that I'm living with this person 24/7, and in quarantine with them turns out I, now that I hear them chew and how often they, whatever, I'm like. Ah, so I partly that partly I'd been holding this. Secret or shame inside having been now through two marriages to men. And I just started to realize that my truth was far more expansive and that my sexuality was far more expansive than how it appeared. And I was in these hetero-facing marriages, not feeling completely fulfilled. So I said, I'm gonna go online and find other women who are in hetero-facing marriages, who just feel even if they don't wanna leave and be with a woman. I just wanna know other people who are in this situation and how they navigate it.

And I couldn't find anything until on tame came out the book, but that was a little later. And so I couldn't find anything. So I started it. So I go online and I create a Facebook group for women in hetero relationships who are coming out as queer to themselves like 200 people overnight join.

Emily: Is that what you call the group?

Pasha: Actually, it's a very secretive group, but it's called it's. I mean, like you can't just go online and find it right. But it's called Bite out of Life because and that was secretive too because a lot of people were identifying as BI. So like I was doing the ADHD thing. What are all the words to start with buy? What are all the words that FBI and it turned out bite. So I wrote Bite out of Life like how can we claim our desires? How can we claim our worth? How claim our sexuality. And so I called it bite out of life. Only by invite for people, Facebook friendly and asked to be in it. And I stalk them to make sure they're real and not bots.

And then 200 women signed up overnight and a lot of them are still there and more. And they're my friends and there's been beautiful love stories within that group. And a lot of women went on to stay in their marriage and open their marriage, become polyamorous. Some women left their marriages. Some people have remarried, some people have married women. Some people did nothing. I am one of those people, which is really weird because I wrote the damn book because part of coming out and being married and having kids in this economy is frankly the logistics of all of it. Yeah. Just finances raising kids. Custody. I've done it before with my first husband.

I'm not really in this space to do it now, especially cause my kid is sick and the economy and real estate. And yet I had to say my truth. So I still said I need to be out and queer. Yeah. And sometimes is by and sometimes it's pan. And so I looked for books about this. And I couldn't find them. I found books about being an ethical slut.

I found books about like telling somebody you've come out, wanna leave. I didn't find a book about staying in your hetero facing marriage and coming out queer. So I wrote the damn book called my next husband, who will be a lesbian. And it includes stories from a lot of other women in this situation. And it's on Amazon.

And I probably have a closet full of them because I never did a book tour or anything because of COVID. It's still a really important book to me, but I feel like I need to write another one because here I am two and a half years later, still in my marriage, still not financially independent enough to leave the economy's worse.

And I wanted a parent and not do the custody thing right now. And I still have not ever, despite the title had a relationship with a woman, but I know someday I will. So it's the knowing. That you don't for anyone out there listening, who's resonating with this. You don't have to ever have any experiences to back up your claims.

You can just know yourself is queer. You don't ever have to have any experience at all. You don't have to change a darn thing, but it's nice to be able to say it to yourself and out loud. Yeah. To yourself or to others who can hold space for you safely. And then I just relentlessly became an ally, an advocate for the queer community and, and gay rights and most all of my clients in the ADHD community also identify.

Somewhere along the spectrum of queerness and there's a cross-section there. And I, I think it's really important for safe spaces to be held for kids who don't know who they can trust to come out to. So I make sure in my community that I'm that person.

Emily: I love that so much. And I think one of the most remarkable things about you is you're willingness to really be seen. In your truth in ways that frankly, for me, if I imagine myself doing that, it feels so vulnerable. Like it actually feels extra vulnerable to write the book and then stay in the hetero marriage.

Pasha: It would've been a sexier ending. Had I done anything right? It's, that's, what's vulnerable. That's why I feel like I need to write another one. This is my truth and I haven't taken any action yet. And I'm still willing to just say that it's my truth. And there. Yeah, I went on one date in the last five years. One date, it did anyhow it's really, and being an entrepreneur is already lonely. Being a leader is already lonely. So then add to it being a neurodiverse person, being a queer person, like there's a lot of loneliness built into this. And so part of my vulnerability and sharing is to create community and to feel a sense of belonging for because otherwise I'd walk around the world feeling like an alien.

Emily: Yeah. I'm actually surprised to hear you use the word lonely because you seem like such an incredible community builder and you're doing it from a place of truth and vulnerability, which usually results in a real depth of connection.

Do you still feel lonely?

Pasha: I do. I have wonderful friends and incredible online community who sees me and knows me fully, but because I'm in a marriage that isn't completely fulfilling and because I'm not receiving. Like, I don't have the intimacy that turns out as a human need. I did. I honestly underestimated the, the physical and psychological damage of not being held or kissed or hugged for now for years.

That's a long time. Yeah. And so I'm noticing more and more how that's contributing to. Angst and my loneliness and probably exacerbating my chronic illness symptoms is probably exacerbating my ADHD symptoms. I know the grief I carry is extra weight and it's exhausting being lonely. So it's also interesting because I'm still parenting little one who's sick.

He doesn't always go to school. Yeah. And he doesn't leave the house a lot. So I could be online for 12 hours sharing and talking. But in reality, I'm sitting. A room above my garage right now by myself. And when I go outside into the community here in real life in 3d people, don't actually know me, people don't my neighborhood and community don't know this part of me online community does, but that's a lonely feeling to have that disconnect.

It's misaligned. It's not really integrated yet and I'm working on it. Yeah. It's harder to be vulnerable in that way. When I have a teenage son in the school district and a husband. The school district and he's a teacher and they're not coming out and changing their whole world, but they're part of the story.

So I have to be careful with protecting their privacy and their boundaries. And that gets sticky cuz I don't have any,

Emily: oh, I hear that sometimes. I'm like, okay, if I could just let it rip on this podcast and didn't care about anyone else's privacy. Oh, so just lay it all out there.

Pasha: That's one of my favorite questions to ask people. I said, if nobody you love would get hurt, what would you do? Oh my goodness. The answers are so different from what they're actually doing. Because we fear, we fear being rejected. We fear our loved ones being hurt. We fear our, yeah. People like our people don't write books because they wait for their parents to die until they tell their stories. And I'm like, "Okay, let's see if we can change that. How could we get your truth out that waiting?"So I think it's really interesting to be in this face and have to, or fee I don't have to. I want to protect. Boundaries and privacy

Emily: I get that too. And I think it sounds like you've found a really beautiful balance between speaking your truth, respecting what feels good to them, but also navigating that in between and finding ways to continue moving the needle so that more of your life just feels like truth and full expression.

Pasha: Definitely. I'm excited about that.

Emily: Oh, for sure.

Pasha: I have a vision. I have a vision in my head that I will continue to make money and then I'll be financially independent. And then someday I'll kind of launch myself out of this. Traditional marriage and then maybe even be more out in the queer community and then maybe even date and maybe even someday have another life partner. And I think I'll be a completely different person. Yeah. But it's weird to feel like that's in me, but I haven't figured out how to do it yet.

Emily: And I get that, like in terms of divine timing, and I hear you saying a lot of like someday some and what I will say just as a third party observer is I feel like that could happen so fast. What I see for you, your business, the way that you show up financial independence is like 30 days away. If you choose it and align to it, it's already there waiting for you. And by the way, it's also okay. If it feels like it has to take a little bit longer, like sometimes our nervous systems. Aren't fully ready for flipping a switch. All of the puzzle pieces are there.

Pasha: That's good

to know. Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that.

Emily: So I feel like everyone listening is gonna wanna run to follow you if they're not already.

Pasha: So like, wait a minute. Are you gonna talk about money? No, it's about money, but I go on tangents. So you wanna know how to follow me?

Emily: Yes. Tell people where they can connect with you.

Pasha: I luckily have a very unique name, Pasha Marlowe and I could be found on Facebook under Pasha Marlowe, Instagram Pasha, Marlowe, TikTok is @youradhdcoach. My website pashamarlowe.com. I keep things simple.

Emily: Yes. It's simple. Just put in the name, whether you wanna hire her for some vagina comedy or to learn about your neuro divergence here for all of your needs.

Pasha: Yes. I've been calling myself a neuro weird coach lately because that's the cross-section of neurodiversity and queerness and curiosity that I love.

Emily: That's so beautiful. Thank you. Okay. So as we wrap, we've covered so much of just your multi-dimensionality and I'm really curious if you have just any final words of wisdom for everyone listening through which lens do we, uh, any lens you pick?

Pasha: I feel like beneath that, all of this is for a lot of us, a fear. Of rejection and fear of abandonment. I think that keeps us all from doing all the things from finding relationships, to making money, to being visible online. And I just really welcome people to sit and think if nobody in my world would get hurt, what would I do?

And what do I really like when I'm not wearing all those hats? Like when you step away and you get away for an hour, a day or a weekend, if you're lucky and you don't have to cook or take care of anybody or drive anybody anywhere, like what do you actually do for yourself for fun? What do you wear? What do you eat?

What do you do? What do you think? And that might be your true self. And how can you incorporate more of that into your personal and professional?

Emily: I love that so much. So everyone can journal on that. As you think about it, share your realizations, tag me at and Em Makes Money, tag Pasha, Pasha Marlowe. We would love to hear and just be able to witness you.

There's something so powerful about sharing your realizations, saying it out loud and having other people in your community say yes. Yes, this is it. We see you. We're so proud of you. Thank you so much for being on the show. It's been such a pleasure.

Pasha: Thank you so much, Emily. I had so much fun. It wasn't scary. I didn't even sweat. 

Emily: Thank you.

Key Takeaways

Okay. You guys was that not the best ever interview with Pasha? Here are my key takeaways.

Number one, laughter truly is the best medicine even thorugh death tragedy and illness.

Number two, if you can't find it. Create it.

Number three, your community is out there waiting to connect with you.

Number four, do the most vulnerable thing ever, and everything else feels possible after that.

Number five, don't add compound shame and blame to your situation. Just name it and be the observer while you're in it.

Number six, allowing yourself to be fully seen is brave  as f#c

Number seven, showing up in your authenticity is the key to viral success.

And number eight, ask yourself, what would I do? If no one I loved could get hurt, then get creative and brave about actually doing it.

So thank you so much for listening to the show. I can't tell you how much it means to me. If you could please go subscribe and leave a review. It's absolutely free. And it helps me so much. And I will talk to you.

Thank you so much for tuning into today's show before you go. I have something fun to share. Now, when you leave a review of the podcast on Apple, Spotify, or YouTube, take a quick screenshot and send it to hi@emilywilcox.com. You'll be entered into a drawing to win a free one-on-one Voxer coaching day with me and you help the show reach more new listeners. Such a win-win. I also invite you to follow me on Instagram at EM Makes Money and to jump into my free telegram community, The Money Club, which is linked in the show notes until next time I'm sending you all the magic money vibes.


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