Episode 34: The Ripple Effects of Talking About Money with Jennifer Ketler

Join Emily in a spontaneous conversation with Jennifer Ketler, an artist, and illustrator. She is also part of the Elevate team of the Amazon agency owned by Emily. Jennifer talks about how she discovered Emily’s podcast, how it impacted her money mindset and the ripple effects on her.

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Jennifer: Money wounds. What are money wounds? Oh my gosh. 'Cause I love money and I have money wounds and all this stuff and it was just like this amazing rabbit hole that I went down and it was so, there's so much joy and excitement and discovering the information that you're sharing with us as well as like all those other women's stories, all the other people that you'd interview. And their stories and like, It just like made my heart sing. I was like, this is the best.

Emily: I'm so happy. Well, and it was cool because then you reached out to me at one point on slack and you're like, Hey, can I get some coaching around masculine and feminine energy? 

Jennifer: Yes. 

Emily: Right? Because I think I had said something about how I would be in like the feminine energy of like, receiving money for a sale. And then immediately flip to like this wounded, masculine energy of like, now I'm beholden to you. Let me prove my worth. Let me quick scramble and do like 85,000 things to show you that I'm worthy of the money that you just spent at my company. And you were like having a similar sort of experience with a few clients.

Hello, beautiful souls. Today's episode is so, so good. And before we jump in, I have some exciting news to share. If you've ever wondered where you're blocking money, this is for you. I've created a free quiz to diagnose your money wounds so you can heal them and unblock yourself to receive more money. Just go to money wounds quiz.com and answer six quick questions to get your insanely accurate and potent results. And if you're loving my vibe and want to work one on one to call in more feminine energy wealth, I would love to hear from you. You can shoot me a DM on social media or go to Emily Wilcox.com to learn more.

Hello, and welcome back. I'm super excited for a special episode of the Em Makes Money Show because I am recording live. So if you're watching this on YouTube, you'll see that I have my guest sitting right next to me, which is not the usual setup. It oddly makes it feel almost a little bit more formal. I don't get nervous at all on zoom, but there's something about us like sitting next to each other that makes it feel like, well, this is some kind of buttoned up formal interview, but I'm sure once we're in it for five minutes, we'll feel comfortable. 

Jennifer: Right. 

Emilly: But I have Jennifer Cutler here on the show and this is like so fun and special and kind of spontaneous because Jennifer is on the team. At Elevate our Amazon sales agency. And so she's out here for a couple days because we were doing some leadership meetings and just planning for 2022 for that business. We ended up meeting with a client today as well. And I just kind of spontaneously, we found ourselves with a couple hours this afternoon and I was like, do you wanna be on the podcast? And, Jennifer was brave enough or stupid enough or crazy enough to say yes to that request. So Jennifer, thank you so much for being on the show. 

Jennifer: Well, thanks for having me. This is great. Thanks for having this idea.  

Emily: So, and this is like a stretch for me too, because, and I haven't told you this. So Jennifer somehow found out about my podcast. I don't really talk about. What I consider my coaching business, which I feel like the podcast is a piece of that, at Elevate. And not that I'm hiding it, but I guess it's just like a little bit of a compartmentalization. And if I'm being completely honest, there's probably a bit of, like a safety mechanism in there as well.

Because when I'm talking about things that are so important to me and feel like at the core of who I am and what I believe, and like my mission in the world, like, there's a part of that, that feels like it's like this little seedling that needs to be protected. Right? And, and it feels like scary and vulnerable to share that with just anyone. And so, I just tend to not share it there and we all communicate on slack and one day. 

Jennifer posts in our wins channel. And she's like, my win is that I discovered Emily's podcast and it's amazing. And my first feeling was a little bit of contraction, like this little bit of fear response of like, oh God, my two worlds are colliding right now.

And I don't know how I feel about that. And not because I was worried about you listening into the podcast. I think I was imagining. You know, like we've got some guys on our team that live in like, the heart of the Midwest and, you know, the idea of like, imagining them, listening to me, talking to someone about, like orgasmic manifestation was just like, I don't know. I want that to happen. And then pretty quickly I was like, okay, I can just trust that it lands with who it's supposed to land with. 

Jennifer: Right. 

Emily: And no one on our team at Elevate is going to, like, force themselves to listen to my podcast. If it doesn't resonate. Right? 

Jennifer: Especially if orgasm is in the title.

Emily: Right. They'll just move on. 

Jennifer: The description. They'll not for me, 

Emily: Right. They'll be interested or not. And either way is okay. And they can just move on. But, like I had a little moment. But it was also an opportunity for me to grow and just realize that like, the ripple effect of this work can be so much bigger than what I anticipated.

Jennifer: Absolutely. I think I was chatting with Jeff now. I'm thinking about it. And he just casually mentioned, we were talking work stuff and he casually mentioned you had a podcast. And I was like, what? Cause I love podcast. And it like personal development, everything like that is my jam. And so I quickly looked you up and I was just like, what is this? This is amazing. And money wounds. What are money wounds? Oh my gosh, 'cause I love money and I have money wounds and all this stuff. And it was just like this amazing rabbit hole that I went down and it was so there's so much joy. And excitement and discovering the information that you're sharing with us, as well as like all those other women's stories, all the other people that you interview. And their stories and like, it just like, made my heart sing. I was like, this is the best.

Emily: I'm so happy. Well, and it was cool because then you reached out to me at one point on slack and you're like, Hey, can I get some coaching around masculine and feminine energy?

Jennifer: Yes.

Emily: Right? Because I think I must have, I had said something about how I would be in like the feminine energy of, like receiving money for a sale. And then immediately flip to like this wounded, masculine energy of like, now I'm beholden to you. Let me prove my worth. Let me quick scramble and do like 85,000 things to show you that I'm worthy of the money that you just spent at my company. And you were like having a similar sort of experience with a few clients.

Jennifer: Yes. As a brand manager, I'm working with these entrepreneurial brands and it's just like, I can hear it in their voices, their fear, and I can see it, them also going in and out of like, okay, I trust my brand manager. I'm gonna let her do her thing. And then a couple days later, they're in their account touching and changing things, very, you know, masculine, controlling. And I'm just like, what's happening here? Wait, trust me, let me, let me help you. And then me feeling insecure, like, am I doing enough? For them. Am I doing enough? And all those questions? And so, there's a couple brands in particular that I was just like, Oh, my goodness. What is happening? 

Emily: And it was fun for us to like, talk through that. And I think it might have been like our first one on one time that we had with each other. And we just, like, I just dove right in on like inner child wounds. with you. Right?

Jennifer: Right off the bat. And I was like, and I love that. I love going deep, like being shallow is exhausting. But let's go deep. That's so, like energizing. 

Emily: It's so neat to be able to like have that relationship, because again, like when I zoom out and think about it and it's like, how amazing that we're in this day and age, not every organization, but many are starting to really think about like mind, body, spirit in the workplace. And it never used to be that way. 

It used to just be mind, right? Or body, if you were like, you know, doing like physical labor. But other than that, it was kind of like, okay, how do we, how do we just like, extract the most from our employees? And to me, it like, it kind of helped reframe what I was doing in my coaching business and almost see it as like a fringe benefit. For those that elevate who are interested in plugging into it. right? If you want it, how cool is it that you have someone in your organization that wants to riff on this stuff? 

Jennifer: And I don't know. I don't know if I told you this, but I, I told one of our brands who is a mom. That, hey, you need to listen to Emily. Our founder has this podcast around money. I hear you saying these things. These are money wounds. I hear like, lack mindset. You need to listen to Emily. 

Emily: You did not tell me that.  

Jennifer: I just remember. 

Emily: Did she listen?

Jennifer: I don't know. I don't know. I I've told her multiple times in email and face to face, but don't know if she ever, well, maybe she'll listen to this episode. That would be great. Maybe I'll send it to her. 

Emily: You know, and it's again like the ripple effect. Right? And just trusting that, like when we're in alignment and we're doing what we're meant to be doing in this world, it goes so much further beyond. What we could expect or anticipate, right? Your, your job description is as a brand manager. And so really you're kind of, go between, between the brand and a lot of the internal resources that we have at Elevate and you're strategizing and you're helping to, you know, try to formulate and execute on a plan to grow product sales on Amazon. Right? That's sort of the on paper thing that's happening.

But if you think about some of those conversations, right? Talking to someone about an awareness around money mindset, who knows what the ripple effect could be, of something like that. When you think about how many more thousands of customers are getting their hands on a really cool product that maybe serves a physical need, but also serves an emotional need.

Jennifer: Right. 

Emily: And the ripple effect of that, like it's impossible to quantify, but it is really fun every once in a while to just zoom out. Sometimes it's easy to feel like, insignificant.

Jennifer: Yes. 

Emily: There's one little human on this planet. 

Jennifer: But it's like, well, going back to what you said about how like the physical needs versus emotional needs, we only buy for emotional needs. Which I think is just so fascinating on so many different levels. Working with these brands and talking to them and like, Hey, let's sell your products on Amazon listening to them. Say like, 'cause I hear you use language around like lack mindset and abundance and feminine, masculine energy and what I'm learning from what you're saying on your podcast with all the other women entrepreneurs that you're interviewing and then how I can pass that onto my brands.

Because like, you know, strategy with Amazon is like, let's send off channel traffic to your Amazon listing because we'll help, you know, sales with all strategy stuff. But so many brands have this, like, lack. And they're like, no, I wanna keep traffic on my website. My margins are better. I wanna nurture that customer. It's just better if I stay here. And it's so interesting to me because it's just like, well, it's like from a strategy standpoint, right? eCommerce, it all, like, feeds into each other and how consumers are behaving with purchasing, but it just goes back to your podcast about money wounds. And when I hear that, then I think, how can I talk to this client and ask some more? I always like to think, like, what's the thing under the thing. What was your upbringing like? Should we jump into money wounds like, right?

Emily: Right.

Jennifer: And go more on that intimate level. And that's what I do love because I can feel so insignificant as a brand manager, just doing this one thing, but knowing like everything's connected. These entrepreneurs are trying to build wealth for their team and their families and everything. And, and the thing under looks  like.

Emily: Totally. And, you know, it's like, lack mindset can be so sneaky. 

Jennifer: Right. And like, so pervasive. 

Emily: And so like, this idea of like, well, I've acquired this customer for my website and my margins are better there. I don't wanna send them to Amazon. And it's like, okay, well, let's look at the underlying beliefs there. The underlying belief is there's a finite number of people that are gonna buy my product, 

Jennifer: Right.

Emily: That someone that bought it on my website, if I send them to Amazon, then I'm losing a sale on my website. Well, is it possible that the same person might buy your product in two places? 

Jennifer: Right.

Emily: Yes, it is, is it possible that they might tell a friend about your product? 

Jennifer: Right.

Emily: Is it possible that this is actually, you know, that there's an abundance, that there's more people interested in a product like yours than probably you could ever even serve with your current size of your business and how much inventory you have. 

Jennifer: Right? Yes. Abundance is like such a keyword. This is an abundant universe. There's so much out there. And I love that. You talk about that a lot with the people you interview and their process. And I just, there's so much like what if we lived in abundance?

Emily: Yes. 

Jennifer: What if that was on the forefront of our brains? While we're doing all these fun things, that is so exciting to me. 

Emily: It is. And it's like, you know, the embodiment of it and the integration is the work so to speak, right? Because even though this is my work all the time. I catch myself in lack around things. And sometimes it's the silliest things like this summer, I was noticing it around sunscreen, like how much sunscreen, like my kids were using or like wasting it while they were like, you know, trying to spray their body in half of it's like flying past their arm and just, you know, blowing away in the wind. And for some reason, sunscreen felt like this kind of like limited resource and like a more expensive purchase, you know, like, I don't know what a bottle of sunscreen, like 10 bucks or something. 

Jennifer: Not much. 

Emily: And it doesn't last that long. Right? 

Jennifer: Right.

Emily: Maybe spray, like your whole body four times when the cam's gone kind of a thing, but it was like, the point is not the sunscreen. The point is like catching it and noticing, like, I'm in lack right now. Is there a true lack? No, I can go buy more sunscreen. Do I not have the money to buy the sunscreen? No, I have the money. Okay, cool, cool. So, like next time I go to the store, can I buy like three times what I would normally buy? So I can actually like, experience abundance. In this one thing. And it's like, if we just do that even a couple times a week, if there's a new noticing and a shifting. You'll be a different person a year from now. Your world will look entirely different. Right? Than the way it does, now. 

Jennifer: Right. Well, and I always like to think, like if I can't trust in those small things, how am I supposed to believe and trust in the big things? Right? So if we can exercise, like, I'm gonna have enough sunscreen. 

Emily: Right. 

Jennifer: Or body lotion. I get fancy body lotion from my family, you know, at Christmas or those candles that smell delicious. And they're like $20. I went through a season in my life where I would never burn the candles. I would never use the lotion 'cause it was, it was fancy. What in the oil. And then there's like worthy issues that go with that. Right?

Emily: Right. 

Jennifer: Am I worthy enough to use, oh my gosh. So much stuff, but, but if I can't like, execute and overcome that lack mindset, those worthy issues in the small things. How am I supposed to reach my big dreams? My big goals that are gonna, you know, make the big impact in my community and my family and all that.

Emily: You know, I have a little different perspective on that in the sense that I actually don't think that there are small things and big things. I think it's all the same. We make it mean different things. So we make it feel like the car is really different than the candle is really different than the sunscreen. But, it's actually just choosing to align our energy with lack of abundance in each thing. 

Jennifer: Right. 'Cause the universe is like, doesn't know, right? Universe is like $5 or a thousand dollars.

Emily: Right. It makes no difference. It makes no difference. And interestingly, and this is something that Melanie taught me that makes so much sense, is that certain things or certain, like dollar values carry a lot of coding for us. We have a real story around $40 or something, but we like might not actually have any story around $4,000. And so oddly, sometimes the bigger things are actually easier than the small things, because we just haven't added all of these extra codes, all of this extra meaning. And so, because so much of the meaning making happened in our formative years, it tends to be actually around smaller amounts. 

Jennifer: That totally makes sense. That totally makes sense. I'm gonna have to think about that one more.

Emily: It's really fascinating. So, and everyone listening, like I would be so curious as if this is a new concept for you just spend the next week noticing. Maybe even the next month, there's lots of transactions. Of course, that, like, pass through our lives every day. But when there's a bigger one notice, because I oddly felt like I, I've made a lot of mastermind investments that are around like the two to $3,000 a month mark. And then when I invested in the hyper mind, it was $10,000 a month, but I didn't feel like three times the resistance or five times the resistance. In some ways, it almost felt easier because I really believe, like I don't have a lot of coding around making $120,000 investment. 'Cause like I just hadn't done it before.

Jennifer: Well, and even when you're, you're speaking now that I think about, with my past big moves, like with the big stuff in my life. I've never felt fear around it. And maybe 'cause it was so big and if it was gonna work out, like just trusting the universe was just gonna make it happen. 

Last year we sold our house, we moved, we sold all of our things and there was so much peace around that. But then the smaller tasks, like the nitty gritty of like hanging on to like, you know, we sold a lot.

We sold a lot of our baby things, 'cause we're not sure if we're gonna have a second child, but, and there was, like a lot of like, hanging on to that. Instead of like, trusting I can buy more baby stuff. I don't wanna move it. You know, to the next state over. 

Emily: Right. There is like so much incongruency where it's like, why is the sunscreen? Why are the used baby clothes? 

Jennifer: You just hang on.

Emily: Thing that feels sticky, but the big move. Sure. I'll sell my house. I'll sell all my possessions.

Jennifer: No problem. That was like, he's done. I know.

Emily: But one of the things that is so fun to think about is like our lives as, you know, these perfect it's like a perfect classroom. And so, you know, all of these different experiences are just the right curriculum for us and these beautiful learning opportunities. And, you know, going back to what we were talking about with, you know, working with clients and noticing our inner rescuer or our inner people pleaser and things like that, it's like our work really is a vessel or a vehicle for our own inner work and our own personal growth and evolution. And, you know, I think a lot of people that bounce around from job to job are hoping that, like something outside of themselves is going to like that the environment is gonna fix the issue. And it's like, not that there isn't some truth to that sometimes. Right?

Jennifer: Right.

Emily: But also it's like, if there's a pattern and you're the common denominator, probably there's an opportunity to take a look at that. 

Jennifer: Right. You are still gonna be at that next job. Right? You still have to work with you. Well, and that is one thing I hear you talk a lot about on your podcast, as well as the other women you interview. It is like being an entrepreneur is such an amazing, like, personal development process. 

Emily: Yes. 

Jennifer: And I experienced that cause I have an entrepreneur spirit, as well as working with all these clients, all these brands, they're all entrepreneurs. And I can see them, especially the ones that I've been working with for longer amounts of time. I can see their personalities kind of, like transform and their behaviors, changing in their thought process. And it, it is so exciting that we're all you. We're all working together to, you know, make money, grow their brands, but then also to see that personal development, which is ultimately like the most valuable thing. Right? The most important thing. So, that's so interesting. 

Emily: Absolutely. And it's like, if we look at our business or our role within an organization, like, as the vehicle for our own inner growth. I think it really helps change, like the context of what we're doing, right? Because, there are shitty moments, no matter what. 

Jennifer: Yes. 

Emily: And it's, for me, it's so helpful to be like, okay, you know, it's like being in the rock tumblr, you know, it feels terrible, but it's like, it's all of that tumbling that actually makes the gemstone look polished and beautiful at the end. It's like, you gotta get rid of all the jagged edges and everything else. It's a refinement process. But, when you're in it, it feels horribly uncomfortable. And you wanna just like hit the eject button.

Jennifer: I actually put in a little affirmation by my desk, just a couple weeks ago that says, thank you for this trial, opened my eyes to what I can learn. 'Cause we do trials, problems, issues. I mean, that's, that's life, right? That's normal. Instead of getting like bogged down and defeated through that, just be like, what can I learn from this? How can I be better? 

Emily: I love that.

Jennifer: And then like, what's next? What's the next thing?

Emily: Absolutely. Well, and I just feel like, you know, that, so comes through at elevate, like your enthusiasm. You're always interested in like, taking on the next challenge or like looking at the bright side and trying to figure out. You know, what's next? How do we make this better? And, you know, from an employer perspective, it's amazing. I wanna clone you. 

Jennifer: Thank you. Thank you. I am an internal optimist for sure. 

Emily: Same. Sometimes I'm like to a fault. My husband would say so . But I, I think I've like drunk enough Kool-Aid to, to believe that it's actually a really, really good thing. Because I'm like, you know, even if this is just like a grand delusion, that I've just convinced myself that everything's happening for a reason and everything's happening for me. And that, that the universe is setting everything up to my grade advantage and all of that. It's like, even if all of that is BS, which I don't think it is, it's like, does it make me happier? Living my life.Yes.

Jennifer: 100%. Yes. 

Emily: So what's the problem then?

Jennifer: Right.

Emily: You know, if I'm under a grand delusion of happiness and enjoying the journey and just looking for the positive and everything, I have a hard time, like finding a flaw on that.

Jennifer: Right. Right. I don't wanna be, ER, I remember watching like one the P as a kid and seeing ER, and just being like, it's a poor guy. Right? All his life. He's just, that would not be fun. 

Emily: I know, like two TERs over here bouncing around. Hi guys. So talk to me about your money wounds. How do you feel like money was presented to you in your childhood?

Jennifer: Oh man. So my story is, my parents divorced when I was really young for second grade. My dad went off to be a very successful businessman, made a ton of money. I saw him work hard. So definitely hard money wound. For sure. And then my mom being a single mom for a couple years, she's an artist self-employed. She worked her butt off, but never had enough. And so I was brought up in this very whole or opposite thinking around money. And so I remember with my dad, like we would go school shopping at The Goodwill, like my sister and I like loved it. Right? It's creative. You're exploring, you're going on. 

This adventure, finding all these amazing funky clothes it was like the best. And then coming home and my mom would be like, why did your dad take you to the Goodwill? He has a ton of money. Oh my goodness. You should be going to like JC Penney's Macy's getting brand new stuff. And I remember as a child, like being wounded there in that moment, because I was so joyful about the Goodwill and then being like, wait, what?

Emily: And were you like requesting to go to Goodwill or was that his choice? 

Jennifer: He just took us there. 

Emily: Do you think he was like, trying to be thrifty? 

Jennifer: That's a good thing. He is. Yes and no. I think he also just saw like two girls growing fast and being dirty and grass stains and like, like finding that balance, especially now being a parent fully understands. But it wasn't like out of a lack mindset, more. My dad's an engineer, so very practical. My kids grow fast. They play the dirt. We have forces goats, like, right. The clothes here are plenty good. Have fun, have at it. Right? Pick what you want. There is that. And then just like, so kind of growing up with that, you know, work ethic was really important to my dad.

My dad talks about like a lot of his friends, they all have tons of money and they give the money to the kids. And then these kids are quote, unquote delinquent because they don't have work ethic they're into drugs because they have enough money. Right? And so my dad was very careful with that. And so I always had a job, right?

The earliest I can remember, and I always bought my own stuff and I was very responsible. So I was very responsible around all that, but definitely that hard money wound of, like, I have to work hard. Because I saw my dad working hard. I saw my stepmom also an amazing, brilliant. Business woman working so hard. And I wanted what they had because they had the power, the influence, they traveled the world, they had these amazing clothes. We had a gorgeous house and I saw my mom being an artist and struggling. Now she lives in abundance. Right? She's done her work. She's gotten there and now she's on super talented artist, but it was very conflicting as a child. 

Emily: And I wonder too, like not only working hard for money, but also was there this feeling of like, needing to like, prove to dad that, 100% that you could do it. 

Jennifer: Yes. 

Emily: So like earning the love and approval too, right?

Jennifer: 100%.  And that, and like, in so many levels, like I, I had my own bag business in college, so I take car vinyl scrap and make it to a bag and I'd sell it at art fairs and got into some boutiques as well. And I loved it and we got married. We moved to Utah. We were snowboard bums. I had some like freelance. Design work on the side, but that was like gonna be my thing. This was what, 2007, like Etsy just started. Right? Handmade stuff was like, new and fresh. And I was gonna like, take it to the next level, but my dad was like, no, you need a nine to five.

You need security, you need benefits. 401k. You need to do this. You need to climb the ladder. And so I was like, okay. And I remember. My husband and I just got married. We did two years of snowboard bum, creative making purses. I mean, I made purses in this garage and I'd be sitting there and like praying to be like, I need some money. Why am I make purses? Is this the right idea? And literally this one time, this old woman walks by on a walk. Sweetie, what are you doing in here? And I showed her around and she bought a couple bags for a couple tutor dollars. 

The universe was pointing me in that direction, do this. But then my upbringing was like, my dad was like, no, you need to do that. And so I was like, okay, I'll do the career thing. So that sent me into like, got the job. And it was an amazing job, traveled the world, product developer, designer. And it was incredible. And then I got this idea of like, I wanna be a manager before I'm 30. To prove to my dad and I did it, and it was amazing and it was great and the life experience, but then I also hit a season of depression. And I can laugh about it now. Because, right? Everything in hindsight, but the striving, the working hard, all of that just crumbled down.

Emily: I think it's really hard when we achieve everything. That on paper we thought was going to fill our cup, make us feel worthy, make us feel so loved. Get us the material possessions that we wanted. And then it's like, you get all of that and only to find.

Jennifer: You're miserable. 

Emily: All this inner emptiness. And it's like.

Jennifer: Well, and then the shame that comes with that too, right? On paper, I'm traveling internationally every four to six weeks. So my friends are like, oh my gosh, you're doing this right. And I have the status. So I'm traveling in the lounges and all that working in the outdoor industry. So I'm also going to snowboarding all over the world, mountain biking. Right? And all the shame that came with, I should be happy. Fortunately, it sounds like I'm not the only one that's experienced that.

Emily: Right. I know this is an important thing. And I think, again, just trusting that, like we all get the life lessons that we need 'cause you and I are both moms. And so, you know, we've talked about like, how do we now screw up our kids? wait, our, we're definitely gonna screw up our kids. They're gonna be a different flavor of screwed up.

Jennifer: Right.

Emily: Then we were.

Jennifer: Right. 

Emily: But we'll also know that we did our best.

Jennifer: Right. I get to see my son now, she always talks about lack mindset. I'm tired of talk about lack mindset. Right? 

Emily: I know. I can't wait to see like the new age, spiritual way of screwing up your kids. Right? What are they gonna be saying to their therapist?

Jennifer: Limited beliefs. That's a limited belief. So, always talking about being triggered. Inner child wounds. What I know.

Emily: I know. But it is like, your dad was obviously doing his best and you know.  Wanting you to like wanting you to stand on your own two feet and like raise an independent daughter, which is wonderful.

Jennifer: Right. And that's what I, I've learned that. And I've spoken to him about it. It was like out of love. This is what he knew. This was his personality, right? He was very left brain engineer. This is what you do. So out of love, he was encouraging me. 

Emily: And I think also too, like having a mom, that's an artist and you know, there's already so much societal conditioning around starving artists. That like, even I feel like if your dad had been like, just go for it. You may have still, like, come to the same conclusion. That I'm only gonna just be able to get by with this, you know, little passion project, kind of a thing. It, obviously it all unfolded the way that it was.

Jennifer: So, all works out.

Emily: Great.

Jennifer: I'm really happy to get you here. 

Emily: But, so what got you out of the depression, you, but how do you, it?

Jennifer: Well, how did I do it? Well, what, three or four years of counseling? Being motivated too, by like, I mean, I, I knew I wanted to be a mom. I knew I didn't want the upbringing that I had for my child. So very motivated through like, how can I be the best mom? I think that was probably honestly the biggest motivator. And I also saw, saw the toll that I was taking on my marriage too. And obviously my husband's very important to me. So wanting to be the best version of myself, for him, for my future child at the time, I'm very externally motivated like that.

So, and I, I knew, like I knew God loved me. I knew this. He has a life for me to prosper and to live in abundance. And like I knew those biblical truths about God, I wasn't living in it. And I knew there was better for me. And I, I had to get some outside help. To break through that depression and all those, like, you know, negative thought patterns and habits and all that fun stuff. So, it was, it was a rough season for sure. Got through it. It's some amazing friends to support too. So that was good. 

Emily: That's amazing. And so after that, do you still feel as money motivated as you were?

Jennifer: That's a good question. I would say I'm actually more money motivated, but out of the curiosity of what money can do. As an energy exchange. And how it can impact people's lives for the better. And like the one thing my husband and I are this, I'm so grateful for him. Cause we're this really good team to change your community. You need volunteers and you need money. My husband loves to volunteer and I do too, but I'm introverted, right?

 I would, I wanna kinda stay at home, but I also would love to make money. So, I'm like, oh my gosh, I'll make the money. You do the volunteer work, right? Just seeing how our life journeys are unfolding. So, I would definitely say I'm more motivated by money now. But in a healthier manner.

Emily: No, I totally get that because I, I feel like when I actually like fully allowed myself to claim it it's like, of course I want a ton of money. Right? Why wouldn't I?

Jennifer: Exactly. We live in abundance. 

Emily: Why wouldn't you? Right? It's like the only reason you wouldn't is if you feel like you can't have it, and if you feel like you can't have it, then you, it's easier to protect yourself from the desire.

Jennifer: Right. Or I also think of like, if you couldn't handle it.  And like, from the standpoint, like I can't have ice cream in my freezer. I have tried 20 years of trying to have self control, but I cannot have ice cream in the freezer. I would assume some people would know like, Hey, if I have a lot of money, I know I would do all these like quote unquote, like bad things.

So, I think that's a good point too.

Emily: You know, it's, it's interesting too, around like why we want money, because one of the things that, that my mentor has said is she's like, you know, there is a limit to how much you can know about yourself  without money, right? Because like, you know what your sense of style is right now within your budget.

If you could go to any store in the world and spend any amount of money. That you wanted, then what would your style be? Now, It might end up being the exact same thing, but there's really only one way to know that for sure. Right? Same thing with food, right? There are certain things that, do you, do you like truffle mushrooms? Well, one mushroom costs, like, I don't know. Thousands of dollars. Right?

Jennifer: Right.

 Emily: So, how are you going to know? 

Jennifer: Right. Unless you try.

Emily: Unless you try, right? And how are you gonna try, unless you're at a level of wealth where, who cares if I spend a, a few thousand dollars on a single mushroom. And I thought that was such an interesting perspective of like, using money as a tool for self discovery.

Jennifer: That's really interesting. I'll have to think about that one too. Cause I know. I have, like, going back to the, the clothing example is like, I, I used to play that game of like, if I could buy anything, what would it be? And that'd be like, okay, what do I have in my closet that could mimic that?

I used to, I used to play that game a lot because I grew up in a very affluent suburb. And I, I saw people with lots of money and I also saw how miserable they are. 

Emily: And I, and I think like there's some truth to that. But also it's interesting. I, I really believe that like our brain, again, as a protection mechanism also like clings onto these things. If we can believe that rich people are miserable, perfect. Now we have like the best excuse in the world to not wanna be rich. Right?

Jennifer: Right. 

Emily: And it's like, well, are there poor people that are miserable? Yes. Are there middle class people that are miserable? Yes. Right? But for some reason when we see someone middle class miserable. We're not like I don't wanna be a middle class.

Jennifer: Right. That's true. 

Emily: That middle class band of wealth is just really not treating people well.

Jennifer: No, not a good place to be. 

Emily: It's like, we're, we're more willing to understand that like, that misery, right? Is coming from an internal place.

Jennifer: Right. 

Emily: But when rich people are miserable, we're like.

Jennifer: It's gotta be the money.

Emily: It's the money. 

Jennifer: Totally. The money.

Emily: Don't want that money.

Jennifer: Right.

Emily: It'll screw you up having that much money. And it's like, maybe I also see like Sarah Blakely, she looks like she's doing just fine. You know, there are plenty of examples of rich people where it's like, actually their life looks pretty rad. They seem very happy, you know? So Richard Branson's like not doing too bad. Still has the same wife of, you know, 50 years and a happy family and gets to do whatever the hell he wants to do. But I love that you tried to recreate the look, 'cause I feel like that was like, that's like what they do in, like every Cosmo magazine, you know, they show like the celebrity.

Jennifer: Yes.

Emily: For wearing the outfit and how much each of the pieces cost. And then, they're like, get this look and they show you like the target version of it. 

Jennifer: Right. 

Emily: And it's like pretty close. 

Jennifer: It's very accurate. Almost to the point. I'm like, wait, why would I spend that much money?

Emiky: But I think that the thing that like gets discounted in all of that, and not that there's anything wrong with either look, right? They're both fine. But it's like, there is something to like the identity work that goes into being the kind of woman that can wear a $2,000 shirt. It's not really about the $2,000 shirt, because most people walking by on the street, aren't going to know that aren't going to care. Don't know whether it's the target look or the $2,000 look, but you know.

Jennifer: Oh my goodness. When I bought my first pair of seven jeans, walking around, it was for a trip. 

Emily: Are those the ones that say like lucky you or no?

Jennifer: Those are lucky. Those are lucky. 

Wmily: Our stories. I was thinking, you know how sevens are lucky. So, I was like putting the two together. But no, different. I always thought those were so cool though.

It says lucky you on the fly, right? Whoa! That's pretty, but sevens are even more expensive, right? 

Jennifer: I went full send, I got like a bonus. I was like, I'm doing this. I'm going on a work trip, man. I swear. I walked taller in those jeans. I just like my butt looks great. I looked, I worked my, I worked for these. I deserve this. It was so awesome. 

Emily: Great. You feel different being the woman that can wear seven jeans? For all mankind. See now I'm finally on the same page as the branding. Not just for you. It's for all mankind . 

Jennifer: But then I also noticed too, then it quickly wore away. right? Then I was like, okay, what's next? What's next? 

Emily: And I think that's an important piece of things too, like particularly for these anchor items, right? Where we're trying to anchor in a new identity is like, can we keep choosing and can we keep desiring and can we keep wanting, and can we keep anchoring into the gratitude once we already have the thing. And this is a huge code, because if you can unlock this piece, It really changes everything because instead of being like, what's next, it's like, how can I continue to feel this way? Every time I put on these jeans. And so I try to do that with certain, I call them like anchor pieces. 

So like this ring is a new one. I like using rings for that. And so that's a good looking way and this ring, so pretty, let me show it for its amazing YouTube viewers. So it's like a teardrop moonstone. And then it's got like a couple little moonstones next to it. And I picked it out. I asked for it for Christmas. My parents got it for me. So there's something sweet there about like, you know, like my inner child who sometimes felt like she didn't get what she wanted or needed from mom and dad. Right?

Jennifer: Right.

Emily: But like now grown up me gets to ask for exactly what I want. And, and my parents get to fulfill on that, and that's like really beautiful, but it's also like, it's a really feminine design. And a couple years ago, I would've looked at this ring and I would've thrown up in my mouth a little bit.

Jennifer: Why?

Emily: Because I just, it would've been too feminine. I would not have been drawn to that style, at all. And so it's, this is like a, a piece for me, it's an anchor to like lean more into my femininity. And so I have the choice of either just getting used to it and then not even noticing it on my finger. Or I have the choice of like, every time I put it on being like, I'm stepping into my feminine, I receive my, my desires are fully met. Right? Adding some intention there. 

Jennifer: Right. Right. 

Emily: And it's like, great. Now this a hundred dollars ring that I love so much gets to like be the gift that keeps giving and keeps anchoring me into this like, new identity.

Jennifer: And then I, I wonder too, as I'm listening to you speak, and it's just like, is there a way to learn this sooner in life? From the sense of like, did I have to wait to be 38 to learn all this and like start activating this. And like, I feel like li like all my friends that are in their forties, like the forties, that's the best time to be living.

All I've learned life, like wisdom. I, I guess I'm now I'm really understanding wisdom. And life experiences. And like, my journey has brought me here to this and like living in that gratitude. Cause I also wonder from a sense of like, we've had so much life experience and so to get there, to be able to have, what did you say? To break that code. Something identifier to be like, I am fully grateful for all this. I wonder if you could do that earlier in life with less life experience. 

Emily: So, my opinion is yes and no. And this, this whole belief around time. Has been such a work in progress for me. So like in human design, one of the fear gates that I have is the fear of time running out. And the flip side of it is like always hitting things in the right time. Really understanding timing and trends. So it's like, it's the, both and of it, right? Are we, are we playing into the high vibe version or the low vibe, but I have definitely experienced the fear of time running out. And for me, what it always looked like was feeling like I was behind. 

No matter, it did not matter how much I accomplished in however many years of life, I always found the evidence of me being behind. Where I should be. I'd find someone else who did it faster or bigger or whatever. And so if that's been so much undoing, what I truly believe. And can spend more time in this belief now, although not always, is that our timeline is infinite. And so like, if you zoom way, way, way, way, way, way out, and just like imagine your soul as like this little dot on a line that goes infinitely to the left and infinitely to the right. 

It's like, what does it even mean? Or matter for me to be 37 years old in this lifetime, like the people who cracked this particular code at age 25, like I don't have the perspective to know how many lifetimes they've been working on this thing. They may have actually been on like the real slow boat, like, that's cute. It took you 140 lifetimes. And then in the 25th year of this one, you finally figured it out. 

Jennifer: Right. 

Emily: But it's like, we just don't know. And so in the absence of knowing we can either judge or trust. And I used to just judge all the time. 

Jennifer: That's easier. It's almost easier sometimes, to do that.

Emily: Well, and it also feels like I have all the information.

Jennifer: Full ego. I got this. 

Emily: Totally. Full ego. And I know what's right. And I know what's wrong and I know who's doing it well, and who's not, and I know what the measuring stick is and I see exactly where I'm falling short. Right? And it's like, but it feels so much better to trust. 

Jennifer: It's so much more peaceful. Relaxing. So much, so much better.

Emily: And it's like, when we look at all these different codes, right? So your dad who had friends who made a lot of money and gave a different experience to their children. So, those kids essentially cracked the code on receiving surplus. But what that left them with was a lot of work to do around finding significance, finding worthiness, happiness, contentment in the absence of needing to like work for survival, which is right or wrong. Who's to say, you know what I mean? It's like, If I crack the code on inner happiness first, and then it takes me longer to crack the code on money. Am I behind? Or am I ahead of the person who had a really easy money channel already set up for them? Had no problem receiving it. 

Jennifer: Right. 

Emily: But then had to crack the code on all this other stuff. 

Jennifer: No, that's a good perspective, 'cause I feel like the world tells us, you want money. Or money can tend to be better than all those other things.

Emily: Right.

Jennifer: If you have money, you'll solve all your problems. 

Emily: Right. 

Jennifer: But more money, more problems. I mean, there's so many ideas around that. 

Emily: I mean more money is just more money, but it's like, you can't then blame all of your problems on money. So, as long as you think that money is the one thing, it can keep you single pointedly focusing on that to the exclusion of everything else.

Right? And then you get the money and it's like not more money, more problems, but it's like, okay, more money is more money. And all of these other problems still exist that now. I can't blame on money anymore. 

Jennifer: Now I really have to do the work. Really. I really have to step up into who I am and my character faults and all those things.

Emily: And we see it all the time, right? I mean, you look at a lot of, you know, child celebrities and, you know, there's so many examples of like getting really massive amounts of money early on in life. And it's like, again, the part of us that wants to have a defense mechanism says like too much money is bad. And it's like, well, that's not necessarily true. It just means that they got a lot of money. And they had to work through other things, other addictions, other issues that just come along with life. And being a human and wanting belonging and wanting worthiness and wanting love and wanting significance and looking for it in all the wrong places.

Jennifer: Right. Is that, is that a song? Do you just try a song? 

Emily: Yes.

Jennifer: Some good lyrics right there. 

Emily: Yes. Let's turn that into the Em Makes Money Diddy. Can be our little opening jingle. Well, I feel like we could riff on this stuff all day,

Jennifer: I love money. 

Emiky: Yes. 

Jennifer: So fun. Yes. So interesting.

Emily: So you're starting a money club. You told me.

Jennifer: I am. First it goes to, I was hearing you say on one, your podcast, about how like manifesting in your community, other like-minded women. 'Cause when I listen to the conversations, you have the language, you use everything, the energy and I'm just like, I want a community like that. I love that. And you talked about it, one of your episodes of like, wait a second. You should manifest that. There are women in your own community. So I did, I prayed about it and I was like, okay, God, I want a woman that I can talk to about this and be open and do all the Woohoo, you know, feminine, masculine, right? Manifesting. Because I talk about, like my husband and he's so chill.

He's like, what? What he'll get there. He'll get it there. So, sure enough. I did. And then a couple hours, like not an exaggeration, a couple hours later, I get a text from my friend and she's like, Hey, you know, I'm reading this book and I feel like you might like it. And it was, I can't remember the name of the book, but it was about money and finances. And I was like, tell me more. And so we met up and we started talking and she's a relatively new friend. 

Cause we, we just moved to a new town. Well, no, I take it back. I've known her for a while, but we just now starting closer, turns out she also loves money. She wants to build, build wealth. She's in a job that she loves, but she's tired. She wants to spend more time with her kids. So she's starting to ask all these questions. And so, we're gonna start a money club.

Emily: I love that. 

Jennifer: We're meeting next week. We, we got, we have our yearly goals. We got our quarterly goals. We're gonna talk about it. Hold each other accountable. You know, me and her are fired up about it. And our husbands. The, they understand the importance and they're there to support us and they'll be involved as well. But, we're gonna go for it. 

Emily: So that makes me so happy. It's so fun. I, I just feel like the more, the more that we can talk about money the better. Because, you know, someone will hold up a mirror for us, and help us identify a limiting belief or where we're too attached to the money coming in this exact way that we had it planned or, you know, like whatever the thing is.

But it's like it's through talking about it. That all of that gets revealed. And particularly if you have like a defined throat chakra in human design, but like talking about things really helps manifest it into this physical reality as well. So that's why it can feel so vulnerable to tell someone like your hopes and dreams. But I actually say this out loud, what's happening right now. 

Jennifer: I just wanna keep my dreams hidden and buried. 

Emily: Yes, exactly. So.

Jennifer: And also like the curiosity, right? Of like, how do people live their lives? How do you do this? Being in nine to five is very suffocating to me. And at first I thought I was weird about that, but no. And so just the curiosity of like, how are they gonna do it? How are we gonna do it? How can we create a budget to say for our future goals that will then give us another revenue stream. So, right? You, if you don't talk about it, You're not gonna know. 

Emily: Right. And you're not open to like all those possibilities. You know, like when I started talking about money, people started feeling safer, talking about money with me. And so, you know, there are people that I've like known for a long time in various capacities. And, you know, one of my friends sent me some messages and she was like, like, I love that you're talking about this. And she shared with me that she and her husband basically. They were able to kind of keep their lifestyle the same. 

They kind of like played this game of trying to keep their lifestyle the same as they were climbing the corporate ladder. And they took everything that was in surplus and invested it and made a game out of like really trying to like grow this whole stock portfolio. And they got to the point where, when they were ready to buy a place in New York city, they had over a million cash like that. They liquidated from their stocks. 

Jennifer: Wow!

Emiky: To allow them to do this. And she was like, you're like one of the only people I've ever told that too. And we're not like super close, but it was just so cool. Because she felt like she could talk to me about money and I was like, that's amazing. 

Jennifer: That's incredible. That's incredible.

Emily: And like, I love hearing them, you know, like that may never be my path, but it's like the more ways I know that people are building wealth, into the tune of a million dollars cash. That is so cool. Why are we not talking about that stuff? Right? 

Jennifer: Right. And then I also think like the character development of like, we're gonna live in this budget. 

Emily: Right. 

Jennifer: And that personal, like discipline that's developed like, oh no, we're gonna like right now, my husband and I, we eat a lot of peanut butter and deli. Right? We're really trying to save 'cause we're building a house this year. So we're like really trying to save and like so much beautiful things happen through that. So yes, they have a million dollars cash, but what fruit of their labor was also created from that process. 

Emily: Yes, exactly.

Jennifer: Us, so cool. I mean, everything. I know. 

Emily: Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast. 

Jennifer: Well, thanks for having me. And thinking yes to it 

Emily: When I just sprung it on you an hour ago, right? 

Jennifer: Oh my goodness. I think my hands will finally stop shaking for be nervous. 

Emily: Normally I would ask my guests. Where people can connect with you. I don't know. Do you want people to connect with you on social media? You don't have to. I mean, do you want them to buy your art, actually give your artist website. 

Jennifer: So yes, I, on my social medias, I do art on the site. 

Emily: She's an incredible artist. 

Jennifer: Thank you, right now. It's being licensed through red umbrella.

Emily: Okay. And so is that the only way to buy it? You have to go to red umbrella.com. 

Jennifer: You know what? I don't have Instagram on my phone cause I'm taking a break from social media. 

Emily: Well, don't worry about it. You're gonna get us the link. We'll put it in the show notes. And if you want to support Jennifer in buying this new home, if you wanna show her what it looks like to have a new money channel open. You can check out and purchase her art. That would be one via the link in the show note. Perfect. 

Jennifer: That sounds great. 

Emily: All right. Thank you so much and everyone listening. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I love having you as a part of this community. Let us know what landed for you and we'll talk to you soon. Bye. 

Jennifer: Bye. 

Emily: Thank you so much for listening to today's show, changing the way we think, feel and talk about money will change the world. I truly believe that, it starts with you tuning in and it spreads when you share this show on Instagram and Facebook and tag me at Em Makes Money. And you know, what moves the needle the most taking just a minute to leave a five star review on iTunes.

This show isn't free to produce. So let's multiply those dollars invested to help this show reach a bigger audience each week. Thank you so much for your help. I really appreciate it. And lastly, if you want more connection, more Em Makes Money style, rifts, and a safe place on the internet to talk about money, jump into my free Facebook group, the money club it's linked in the show notes until next time. I'm wishing you health, happiness and boatloads of money.



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